In today’s episode of the Children First Family Law podcast, Krista is joined by Dr. Susan Fletcher, a licensed psychologist in both Texas and Colorado, known for her deep experience with court-involved families and child-focused evaluations. Together, they explore what children truly experience during and after a divorce and how parents and professionals can better support their transition to life in two homes.
Dr. Fletcher explains how children internalize language like “custody” and “visitation” and offers practical suggestions for reframing these terms in ways that support emotional resilience. She stresses the importance of maintaining consistency, recognizing a child’s individual vulnerabilities, and reframing transitions as opportunities rather than losses. The conversation covers early intervention, therapist involvement, and the crucial role of in-home observations for professionals working with families post-divorce.
This episode also addresses why mental health providers may resist testifying in court, how board complaints create fear, and what professionals can do to better navigate the intersection of clinical care and legal involvement. Dr. Fletcher shares real-world experiences from both therapy and evaluations, bringing clarity to a complex and emotionally charged aspect of family law.
In this episode, you will hear:
- Children often absorb adult terminology like “custody” and “visitation” in ways that affect their sense of identity
- Simple language changes and reframes can support emotional safety during transitions
- Some kids adapt easily to two homes, while others need more structured emotional support
- In-home observations provide professionals with a clearer context for how children experience post-divorce life
- Fear of licensing complaints can prevent therapists from staying involved in court cases, even when their voices matter
- Parents can remain emotionally available without overwhelming their children
- Creating a strong support system helps families and professionals navigate ongoing changes
- Shifting focus from fear-based reactions to hopeful engagement promotes healthier outcomes
Resources from this Episode
www.childrenfirstfamilylaw.com
All states have different laws; be sure you are checking out your state laws specifically surrounding divorce. Krista is a licensed attorney in Colorado and Wyoming but is not providing through this podcast legal advice. Please be sure to seek independent legal counsel in your area for your specific situation.
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Divorce, Two Homes, and a Child’s Voice: What Parents and Professionals Need to Know, with Dr. Susan Fletcher Podcast Transcript
Susan Fletcher 00:00
We’re trying to help children form their opinions and their ability to adapt to having being a member of two households. So I think it’s important to consider different languages, like saying, okay, so you’re going to be with your dad at the house on Cherry Street this weekend, and then when I see you on Sunday we come back to the Main Street house. You know you’ll have everything you need to get ready for school the next morning. So that you talk about it, maybe in terms of the names of the streets, rather than dad’s house, mom’s house. Because many times what kids would say to me in therapy when a transition was occurring with a divorce is they would say, I feel like I’m left out of things. It’s mom’s house, dad’s house. What about my house? My house is where we’re all together, and they have to reformulate the way they think about things. So I find that some parents, when they use the name of the street, that isn’t a way to act like nothing bad is happening. It’s just a different way to frame it, instead of my possession time dad’s possession time, like we need to get away from using phrases like, when your dad has visitation. That’s like my friends who say, I’m going to go out, my husband’s going to babysit the kids. Okay, parents don’t babysit. They parent. So looking at language like, this is your dad’s parenting time, or this is your time with your father, and you’re going to have a blast. He’s going to take you to soccer practice. I’ll be there too, and I know he’s got some plans for y’all to go out to eat or say, you know your mom is going to pick up early because you all are going to go to church together. Being able to talk about parenting time versus possession and access and visitation also helps kids transition and start to deal with the fact that there now are two homes.
Intro/Outro 01:41
Welcome to the Children First Family Law podcast. Our host, Krista Nash, is an attorney, mediator, a parenting coordinator, and child advocate with a heart to facilitate conversations about how to help children flourish amidst the broken area of family law. As a child advocate in demand for her expertise throughout Colorado and as a speaker on these issues at a national level, Krista is passionate about facilitating and creatively finding solutions to approach family law matters in a way that truly focuses on the best interests of kids. Please remember this podcast is provided to you for information purposes only. No one on this podcast is representing you or giving you legal advice. As always, please enjoy this episode and be sure to like, subscribe and share the podcast with others you think would benefit from this content.
Krista Nash 02:30
Welcome to the Children First Family Law podcast, where we explore how to protect what matters most: our children through the complex journey of family transition. Today, we’re honored to speak with Dr Susan Fletcher, a Texas based psychologist, speaker and author of the book parenting in the Smart Zone. Dr Fletcher brings decades of experience working with families, courts and clinicians. She served on the Texas State Board of Examiners of Psychologists. She by Governor Abbott to the Behavioral Health Executive Council and played a key role in modernizing the therapist grievance process in Texas. In today’s episode, we’ll talk about what children need to thrive across two homes, how parents can avoid causing emotional harm to their children, and how professionals, lawyers, therapists and judges can do better.
Welcome to today’s episode of the podcast. I am really grateful today to have with us Dr. Susan Fletcher, who is a psychologist from Texas and also, more recently licensed in Colorado. Interestingly, everybody- don’t rush off and go grab her, because I’m going to try to take her for myself, just kidding, but I’m so glad to have you with us. She has a vast amount of information to share. It’s so hard to call down to even just an hour for sure. But welcome and thank you for being here.. I’m glad to be here so I know we’ve had a chance to have you sort of review a little bit of what the podcast audience is interested in, and we sort of have these two audiences of parents and professionals give us a little of your background that maybe would tip off to both sets why this would be interesting for them to listen to. o
Susan Fletcher 04:04
I had a clinical practice for over 25 years, just like many of the people out there that have a license in the mental health field, that that are on their own, I had a practice where I saw a majority of families, a lot of children, and in the early years of my practice, I started to feel very comfortable with the court environment, which is unusual for someone in my profession, but I was very comfortable with it because I worked a lot with kids, and I worked with populations that were court involved but not related to family law. And over time, I got to know a lot about families in different stages, where at some point may end up in two households due to a divorce. So I’ve seen families when they’re intact, when they’re struggling. I’ve done marital therapy. I work with kids just related to changes and the transition, and then over time, it just sort of occurred. It wasn’t a deliberate move on my part, but I started working more with court involved families that are involved in the family law system, so that is my specialty. Now that’s what I do. I don’t take any private referrals anymore. That was really sad for me, because I enjoyed seeing a lot of progress with people who were there voluntarily. And what I do now, a lot of times, I’m appointed by court to work with a family or provide an evaluation for the professionals that are listening to the podcast. And one interesting fun fact is that at a point in time I also left the profession and went to work at court and sciences. And what that is is that’s the company that was at one time, run by Dr. Phil McGraw, the one with the TV show and so in Texas, for people that are old enough to remember, there was a big case that was the cattlemen. They sued Oprah. And as part of that, Phil McGraw, who was actually a psychologist, is no longer licensed as a psychologist, but that’s a story for another time, but he started working in litigation because that was his area of interest in his research for his dissertation. And so soon after he finished with the Oprah trial and the Mad Cow Disease trial, I met him. Knew some people that knew him, and he somewhat courted me to become a part of his organization. So in that role, I was a litigation specialist, where I assisted experts in their testimony as well as fact witnesses, and also did mock trials and many things like that. So I worked for him for a period of time, and then came back to my practice, and so I’ve seen different sides of it. Working as a litigation specialist, I was part of a legal team assisting with trials, as well as, again, mock trials and things like that. So now I’m very comfortable. I’m very involved in the community of family law. I do a little bit of criminal law, but I really enjoy working in family law and working with families.
Krista Nash 06:54
So I know you also are an author of those books that you did. I’ve got parenting in the Smart Zone and Working in the Smart Zone. A little bit about those, just by way of introduction, too. I know those are what, 2005 and 2008 right?
Susan Fletcher 07:06
I wrote them some time ago, and that was when I had my clinical practice and saw families. I used to have worksheets that I would hand out to people that were dealing with some parenting challenges, or people that were dealing with relationship challenges, and they revolved around the theme of parenting, discipline versus punishment, as well as the area of emotional intelligence. So the first book that I wrote is called Parenting in the Smart Zone. And that was a book that just really was the assembly of the materials I was already providing to people I saw clinically. And so that was something that I found that was very useful, even now, there are times where that’s a book that I can provide to assist people with just general ideas about parenting. It’s not specific to divorce, which, let’s be real, even when two households are being established in a divorce situation, many of the parenting challenges can be those that they would have had, even in an intact family. The second book is about emotional intelligence and the importance of building trust, being able to communicate effectively, understand the emotions of others as well as express your own. And so if you look at it, it seems to have been the beginning of a lot of the work that I do with families that are core involved.
Krista Nash 08:20
That’s great. Super interesting. Well, we’ll make sure we link to those books too, so that people can find them. So let’s transition into talking about the child’s experience. Because I know that sometimes people, you get into divorce, and as professionals, we are looking at these families, it just kind of like a surgeon doing surgery. You do surgery every day. So it just becomes very normalized for us in the profession, whether that’s mental health professionals or judges or lawyers, but when parents go into this, into this shocking new phase of their life, they are desperate to understand how this will affect their kids. And I know you really have insight through your experience as to the child’s experience. So how can we understand this better with the impact of divorce and the impact on kids, and seeing it through child’s eyes?
Susan Fletcher 09:05
I think it’s a great question, because I think that gets lost, especially in the initial stages of a divorce. But I want to also establish something you and I know because of our professions, is that a majority, probably 80% of families that a divorce occurs in two households are being established, their kids do well. They tend to manage it well. They may not even be involved in litigation. It’s really the minority of families that are involved in litigation where there are difficulties that the parents are having making decisions for kids. So you and I know that. So what I’d like to do is just, just in general, say that most often, what the impact on kids is that they have a lot of why questions. No matter what age they are, they want to know, why is this happening? What’s going to happen? What can I expect? And so their questions, especially around the age, elementary, early, middle school, are really all about me, and that’s developmentally appropriate. They’re going to ask about themselves. They’re going to ask what this means. And adolescents also do that because they’re pretty egocentric, and that’s that’s typical for that age range. But there’s a difference for elementary aged children, because they really don’t have a lot of life experience. They may not really understand what it means in terms of their world or the concept of their family and how that may be adapted. So it’s important to really think about the impact on kids. They just want to know what to expect, and it’s important not to give them too much information. So they’re going to have questions you can predict, and many of those questions are going to be about how their life is going to change. I also think it’s important to note that we have to consider each child’s vulnerabilities. There are kids that just have a toolbox of resiliency, and then there are kids, for whatever reason, who are more vulnerable and don’t have a toolbox of resiliency already have trouble with change, like a teacher changing in mid school year or a best friend moving away. So it’s important to consider other changes that may have occurred in that child’s life in order to look at what that child’s needs may be.
Krista Nash 11:08
It’s interesting, because I use a lot with parents, a legal principle that I think really works, even though it’s a little in the weeds from law school. It’s this eggshell plaintiff idea, which is, if if you have a car, it’s a principle of tort and civil law where, if you’re probably aware of it, but just for the audience of if you are in a car accident, let’s say you’re driving down this road and you knock somebody going five miles per hour, and they end up with a traumatic brain injury because they happen to have a thin skull. That’s too bad you don’t get to go to court and say, when they sue you for all of their future medical care. You don’t get to say, Well, I mean, what are you talking about? It’s only five miles per hour. That’s just not reasonable. The idea is, you take these people, how you find them, and people have different proclivities. So I tell parents that all the time when they’ll say, when I’m in that best interest seat, representing a child’s best interest, and they’ll say, well, this is ridiculous. Like I barely did anything. Why won’t my kids see me? Or what are the problems? And we know those are all very complicated dynamics, but generally, the principle that you’re talking about, I think, is very important, that people present differently, and you have to recognize that parents usually have a pretty good innate knowledge of what how their kids present, that they’re more anxious, or another kid is maybe less so, or whatever. So I appreciate you making that point, because parents do seem to understand that. I say all the time to them, we’re taking these kids as we find them.
Susan Fletcher 12:24
I think it’s important to acknowledge that for parents, for moms and dads, or moms and moms dads and dads, that the transition for them as adults with a divorce also can throw them off course. They may not have access to some skills emotionally that they may have had under other circumstances. So we have to look at some short term situations where there may be a lack of an ability to grab the tools in their toolbox, whether you’re a parent or a child, but most often that is short term. And most kids and most parents do well after a divorce, long term, especially if the divorce had, if the marriage had some kind of situation that was domestic violence, all the other things that that we know might occur. So it’s important, I think, to cut yourself some slack if you’re a parent, because many times people are in a crisis mode during a transition with a divorce, and they may not recognize some of the subtle signs that kids may be showing that they’re struggling.
Krista Nash 13:21
I like that. I also like that u\you did make the point Dr. Fletcher, there are a lot of people who do divorce. Fine, we don’t say that enough on the podcast. I don’t know if I’ve ever said that on the podcast, or if any of my guests have ever said that, because I can get in this echo chamber of how toxic these cases are because that’s the work I do, right? I mean, I get appointed when they need somebody like me, and so I think that’s really, really important, because I hope people are tuning in and that there are a lot of people who can say that it went well. In fact, it makes me think I should have some people on who talk about how we did it really well, and it was fine. Kids can be fine. We know, Dr. Saini’s research on it’s really how you co-parent, right? It’s not the divorce itself. I mean, is that what you’ve seen? And I guess I’d ask, maybe transitioning into what are some of the most frequent emotional reactions or reactions that you hear from children when they hear about divorce with their parents?
Susan Fletcher 14:10
Well let’s also acknowledge that sometimes kids know what’s going to happen, and they aren’t surprised, right? They may have overheard something a friend’s family may have gone through something, or they may have secretly wished that it might occur because of whatever may be going on in the household. So really, that’s also something to consider is that kids are pretty smart kids over here, and sometimes it’s a relief for kids. And I don’t know that we say that enough. We’re not saying that people should get divorced. You know, what’s the word? Really, informally and just you know, see it as no big deal. It is a big deal, but, but let’s also acknowledge that many times it’s necessary, many times it creates opportunity for better growth for all the family members. And so sometimes kids feel a sense of relief. When kids don’t feel a sense of relief, typically, the concern would be of those silent signs of isolation or not talking, or some obvious questions they may ask that they’re not asking. And I think it’s important also to acknowledge, and this comes from all my clinical experience working with families, that the more you probe a child to say, are you okay? Do you have anything you want to talk about that could feel like emotional pressure to a lot of kids about anything, but especially about some changes that may be occurring. I think it’s more important for parents, especially those that are in the process of a transition, and they’re focused on their kids, and things seem to be going really well, but they’re worried, which many parents might be worried, make yourself available. So what that means is, if you’re taking your child to soccer practice, leave a little early, and maybe on the way, stop and get something to eat, or maybe afterwards, get some ice cream. Just make yourself available. So when that child is ready to talk, is ready to talk about some vulnerable feelings that you’re accessible. I think we all live really busy lives, and I think that’s good advice, even for intact families, is as a parent, make yourself accessible, do things so that kids know that they can talk to you. Role model your own vulnerabilities without disclosing inappropriate information. Role model that it’s okay to be anxious, it’s okay to be a little scared. It’s about how you manage that the goal isn’t not to have those feelings. Those would be normal and typical feelings that just require some coping skills.
Krista Nash 16:26
Yeah, that’s all really, really good. It’s, I mean, that just is such great advice for people. So when you think about children of divorce, how do does your experience best describe how children understand two homes based on this stage of development?
Susan Fletcher 16:41
You know, I think that that’s a really good question, because it’s easy to compartmentalize a family when a transition is occurring, so usually that might occur with language. So listen to the difference in a parent talking to a child about today, you’re going to be at my house, and then you’re going to be at dad’s house Friday through Sunday, and then I’ll pick you up at six o’clock, and then you’ll come back to my house. Okay? Sometimes it’s important to look…. Is there another way to phrase that that might feel a little bit more inclusive, because we’re trying to help children form their opinions and their ability to adapt to having being a member of two households. So I think it’s important to consider different language, like saying, okay, so you’re going to be with your dad at the house on Cherry Street this weekend, and then when I see you on Sunday and we come back to the Main Street house, you know you’ll have everything you need to get ready for school the next morning, so that you talk about it, maybe in terms of the names of the streets, rather than dad’s house, mom’s house. Because many times what kids would say to me in therapy when a transition was occurring with a divorce is they would say, I feel like I’m left out of things. It’s mom’s house, dad’s house. What about my house? My house is where we were all together, and they have to reformulate the way they think about things. So I find that some parents, when they use the name of the street, that isn’t a way to act like nothing bad is happening. It’s just a different way to frame it, instead of my possession time, Dad’s possession time, like, we need to get away from using phrases like when your dad has visitation. That’s like my friends who say, I’m going to go out, my husband’s going to babysit the kids. Okay, parents don’t babysit. They parent. So looking at language like, this is your dad’s parenting time, or this is your time with your father, and you’re going to have a blast. He’s going to take you to soccer practice. I’ll be there too, and I know he’s got some plans for y’all to go out to eat or say, you know your mom is going to pick you up early because you’re all going to go to church together, being able to talk about parenting time versus possession and access and visitation also helps kids transition and and start to deal with the fact that there now are two homes.
Krista Nash 18:52
It’s interesting because we just, I know, you know Ellen Bruno in her Split films, when I just did a podcast with her that was released today as we’re recording this, or this week, I guess it is today. All the days are running together. But she talked about how kids feel like they’re shape shifters too. How do you respond to that? Or does that resonate with you?
Susan Fletcher 19:12
Well, I think the way that I think of it is that kids feel forgotten and left out, not considered sometimes, and that’s because of our language and two households can unfortunately reinforce that negativity or that belief system. And so I always look at things like two households as an opportunity, looking at you get time alone with one parent this weekend, and then you and I are going to have some time alone during the week or this week, and then you’ll be with your dad next week. Those kinds of things, I think, are being able to present things as opportunities and then to take advantage of the opportunity, instead of using it as an advantage, to try to one up the other parent at the expense of the child, which is what you and I want to help families avoid, because that’s where we really get into real difficulties with kids.
Krista Nash 19:56
It’s interesting too, because I’m having a little bit of a hard time. Fighting the fight about, you know, the lingo around custody, right? Because a lot of people, many, many professionals, have fought for a long time. Let’s not call it custody, you know, goes back to the chattel in the law of like, you know, kids are owned by the dad, you know, for this patriarchal ownership system, right? And so we in the industry have worked hard to make it about parenting time, decision making. But it’s interesting, because it’s very hard to stop parents, marketing people, all these different people, like the industry, outside of just what we talk about really does still call it that, you know, like you look at the Google searches, it’s like parents call it custody all the time. So I appreciate you explaining that a little bit, because I even fall into the trap of using custody and some of my labeling, because, frankly, because that’s what people are searching for, right? And so the marketing people are like, no, you’ve got to use custody. So I get that, but I do think it’s a super important nuance, because these languages really do matter in what we call because kids,
Susan Fletcher 21:00
I mean, when a divorce occurs, for a majority of the population, more is the same than is different, and I think we forget that too. It’s important to help children see that. I don’t believe we should make promises to kids we can’t keep. So if a parent says, I promise you, we can stay in the house, I promise you you can stay at the same school, I promise you that I can still afford to have you on competitive cheerleading or, you know, travel lacrosse, things like that. Be really careful about that, because with a divorce, there are some changes, obviously, and some financial responsibilities and resources. So I don’t want to give the impression that it’s okay to promise something that you may not be able to follow through with. But I do want to help families recognize that it’s important to point out things for children, no matter what age they are, that more is the same, that is different. What is the same is, I love you and your mom or dad also love you. What is the same is, we’re still going to go back to school in the beginning of the school year together. What is the same is that, at least for now, through the end of the school year, I know we’re going to be in this house as some things and some decisions are made, versus what kids are going to notice is what is different. You know, there’s an empty chair at the table in the kitchen where one of the parents used to sit, or I’m with dad, and mom is the one who knows how to braid my hair. So they’re going to already pick up on and they’re going to be hyper vigilant for things that are different. So it’s important to reinforce where you can and you feel pretty certain that something is the same compared to different and and role model that for kids, we’re not trying to put wool over their eyes and we’re not trying to mislead them, but I think we do need to show where more is the same than is different, because that’s the goal. When there are two households, the goal is there’s still a family system. They’re operating from two households, and the hope and the expectation is that the parents don’t let their own conflict influence their ability to parent or interfere with that child’s ability to have a healthy relationship with the other parent.
Krista Nash 23:01
I love that you’re so well spoken about all of this. I’m like, sitting here, because if you’re on YouTube, you can see I’m scribbling all these notes. I’m always writing down the best quotes, so I can use those for my intro quote. And when you give me too many, I’m just sitting here, like, getting hand wrapped the whole time. So well said, well said, okay, so what kind of things would you be able to share that kids tell you when, maybe back when you were doing therapy, or when you’ve been court involved in a way that the kids speak to you directly. Because, man, I have, I should do my own podcast with just sound bites of some of the clips in my head of what kids say to me when I interview them. What kind of things have you heard over your career that they wish their parents knew or that the court knew?
Susan Fletcher 23:38
Yeah, and so it’s a continuum, right? Because, first of all, I’ve heard things from I wish my parents knew that I already knew that they were going to divorce, because I heard them talking about it, and so it’s okay. I wish that my parents, you know, understood that their decisions are affecting me, and I’m not happy about it. Kids also say, what about me? I don’t think that they’re considering me; this is very selfish of them.
Krista Nash 24:02
But I just literally had that just the other day, this kid, like, sat there pensively listening and said, that is so selfish of the court. You know, we were talking about fundamental rights to parent right versus what, how much weight your wishes carry, right and right? Like, kind of scorned me and said, That’s so selfish, right? I mean, yeah, like their their rights are prioritized over yours in these…
Susan Fletcher 24:24
Right I know, and you and I couldn’t talk about that extensively, about how we feel about that. The other part of that is, though, is that kids, developmentally, are looking at fairness. Think about holidays, you know, I know, I have three adult children, and when they were kids, they’re all boys, and they used to argue about, wait, that’s not fair. He got five presents and I got three presents. Well, the three presents cost a whole lot more than the five presents, right? But they’re always kind of looking for, you know, fairness, and that’s developmentally appropriate. I think the goal is for all of us as parents to teach kids what to do when some. Something doesn’t feel fair, because that’s a better life skill, right? How do you manage when something doesn’t feel fair? And so when you’re talking about what kids have said to me in therapy, fairness, and their emphasis on fairness and their hyper vigilance about things that don’t appear fair, seems to be a pretty common theme, and the goal, whether you’re a parent or a mental health professional, is to help that child learn how to manage what it feels like when they perceive things are not fair, because we are doing them a disservice if we try to help them figure out how to point out to others something’s not fair. They need to learn how to cope when things don’t feel fair, and look for opportunities. And I’m also going to add Krista I think you’re noticing is I have a very positive attitude.
Krista Nash 25:41
It’s great. It is. It’s different, and it just is a lot of people. It’s just always negative, negative, negative.
Susan Fletcher 25:50I think whether it’s a family, family members going through a transition, it’s the mental health providers or the people in the court system or attorneys, we have a tendency to land on the square of negativity, and sometimes not feel so hopeful or feel a sense of disappointment, because I’ve had a clinical practice as long as I have, and because I do do a lot of work with families where there’s resistance and refusal, I testify in court as a as a testifying expert to educate the trier of fact about the literature related to court involved families, because I do that, one of the things, even as a therapist, that I tend to focus on, is, where are opportunities, where are the solutions? Because when you deal with families in transition, no matter where they are on that continuum of conflict, they’re focusing on a lot of the negativity. What’s going to change because of that, the way somebody treated them, the court system doesn’t seem fair. Or now I don’t have as much money, or now my children need to change schools, or now I have to get a job, or have to get a different job. There is so much that can feel negative and is negative. I am not denying people their reality of change and negativity, but I do believe my role as a mental health professional, no matter what role I’m in and what role I play, that I have to provide an environment where people can remember that what we have control over is our responses to things, and that there are always opportunities and solutions If we give ourselves the mindset and put ourselves in the mindset to look for them, if we’re always going to focus on loss, grief and negativity, then that’s what we’re going to see. You know, when we teach people to drive a car, we say when you’re driving, don’t look to the left of somebody, you know, that’s walking on the street, because you’re automatically going to go that direction. I think it’s the same thing when we’re talking about families that are involved in the family court system or in the process of a divorce and transitioning to two households, we need to provide an environment where they can look at at opportunities, at solutions, because they’re there, and that’s really what builds resiliency in adults as well as resiliency in kids. And isn’t thathat this is all about? We don’t want children to carry the baggage of their childhood into their own relationships of adulthood, so it’s important for us to help them deal with some of those things. They may need a better toolbox of skills because of a transition in their family, but I don’t really know a downside to that. The upside is they have more tools, and they may be better prepared as adults to deal with different personalities and adapt to change.
Krista Nash 28:25
I love that. I mean, I I am a broken record in talking to kids about just talking to them directly, and they’re very, usually very reasonable people about this, that they know this is hurting them, because, again, by the time I come in, it’s usually pretty conflict laden as the best interest attorney, but they’re aware of how it’s affecting them, and they know it’s gonna hurt them. So even in a parent child contact problem with an older child, for example, I just like, have seared in my memory kids who are 16,17, almost 18, and they’ll say, I’m completely fine, and you know, then they’re weeping, right? And you’re like, you know, and I know that you’re not fine, right? This, there’s, there’s a variety of ways that we can approach this, and I know you don’t want to come out of the corner if you think you have to go to 50/50 and have that pressure. And there’s a whole bunch of dynamics around that, but kids know it’s important that they do this and manage it in a healthy way. I also think sometimes the kids are the more mature ones, which was ironic. I mean, what’s your experience of that? Like the kids are like, Yeah, can we not just negotiate this, in a way, is easier than this. Why is it so hard? Actually, just preview the next part of our conversation like it might be because of the lawyers for some of those factors right that make things more toxic. Have you found that too, that sometimes kids can be the most mature and understanding of the real situations?
Susan Fletcher 29:38
Yeah, you and I attend national conferences, where we have the opportunity to be with our colleagues from other areas, outside of our state, and sometimes we get the chance to socialize with colleagues in our community. We don’t have time until we go to a conference in New Orleans or something. But what that’s one of the things that I think that’s pretty common, that we all talk about, is that, you know, we’re pleased to see that kids are doing well. Through this process, despite high conflict, possibly in the co-parenting relationship, especially when litigation is involved, we just want kids to be able to preserve their abilities and their resourcefulness and management of their vulnerabilities. So despite sometimes parents behaving badly in a divorce process when they are involved in the legal system. We do see a lot of kids are doing well. A lot of what I do now is appointed by courts to do child custody evaluations. And I don’t get the easy ones. There are no easy ones, but I get the ones that require a higher level of expertise and amount of training and knowledge that I have. And then I also do psychological evaluations after being appointed by the courts, everything I do is appointed by the court now. So you can imagine, it’s a certain sample of the population, and I have an evaluation that I completed in the last few years that when I did the interview with the adolescent, the child who was in high school, one of the first things that very wonderful teenager said to me is, I just wish my parents would get over themselves. We just wish they’d get over themselves. And he was a lot more adult than what I learned about the parents and how the parents presented, because I’m going to say, bless their hearts,
Krista Nash 31:12
Right, right? Like, other than overall, you North Westerners who don’t know about that, yeah,
Susan Fletcher 31:18
But the parents were just stuck in their own feelings of stress and trauma and concerns and their conflict, and they were stuck in the details about, you know, things that really in the long run, may not have required that much attention and emotion, but they were there, and that was that was part of the problem, and having their son say to me, I just wish my parents would get over themselves. Actually put it in the report, and then I talked about it in the context of all the other information that I had. And, you know, sometimes I don’t know, as an evaluator, after a case is over, what actually happens, but sometimes you and I do know, don’t we, because sometimes we get these I’ve gotten cards during the holidays. I’ve got cards during Thanksgiving. I’ve been invited to weddings where people I had one recently where somebody sent me a really sweet note with a picture of both families together. Both parents had remarried, and they wanted me to see that. It took them 10 years, but they were able to celebrate a holiday together. And they didn’t like me very much when I was the evaluator, but over time, they learned to understand and reread the report that some of what I said was useful and they needed to apply it. And you know, that’s why we do this work. We do see that families are better for the interventions, they’re better for some of the restrictions. They’re better for some of the Court’s decisions. And we don’t always hear about those. We have the Google review comments that are negative.
Krista Nash 32:43
By the way, I’ll just put a little pin here that you know you can expect that good evaluators have some bad Google reviews. It comes with it. It’s like every single war zone you’re in, somebody’s very, very irate. It might not be the parent, it could be a grandma, it could be a boyfriend, it could be so just take those with a grain of salt. Some of them are true. Some of them are absolutely not true.
Susan Fletcher 33:03
I’m going to add this is one of the first few that I got, it’s been many years ago now. I was like, Oh my gosh, you know. And then everybody was talking about, how do you get rid of those? And I’m like, Okay, I think it’s just part of the territory. And then I spoke at a conference where there were a lot of judges, and one of the judges during a break came up to me and said, Dr Fletcher, I’m glad to meet you because I’ve read your Google reviews, and I’m like, Oh, great. And he said, I want you to know that it gives you credibility with the court, because you’re willing to take the harder cases, and those things you recognize are not about you. And so when somebody gets those kinds of Google reviews, the judges all talk and say, this is someone that might be willing to take a difficult case. I’m going to tell you my favorite Google review is that red headed psychologists are soulless.
Krista Nash 33:43
Oh, jeez, it reminds me of my friend. There’s a taco shop, kind of place, taco restaurant near us, and they, all the wait staff, wears a t-shirt with the Yelp review, or whatever it is that says this place sucks. But they have, they just carry that freak flag on their shirt, you know, and it’s like, one star, no stars, or something like that, you know? And, yeah, I mean, I’ve had, again, like, I’ve started using, you know, I look at marketing, I look at Google reviews, and I’ve had people, Oh, you got to correct that. I’m like, I’m not getting this with these people, you know, you need to respond. I’m not responding. It’s okay, you know.
Susan Fletcher 34:18
So I’m gonna take people newer to the profession, whether they’re attorneys or they’re mental health people, that’s something that’s hard for them to overcome, and they may believe, and maybe rightly so, that that’ll interfere with people that are not court involved actually seeing them because they don’t understand the context. So unfortunately, I think what that does is it makes our numbers shrink, more of the amount of professionals willing to work with a court involved population.
Krista Nash 34:39
It’s a real problem right now. It’s just that it is difficult. So well, there’s so many different ways we could go before we pivot here. But I guess I’m gonna end this section by just asking you, what are some signs that parents might need to be aware of, that their child is struggling emotionally, even if they’re saying they’re fine, right?
Susan Fletcher 34:56
I think it’s a great question, because there are signs and what is een over time is that kids tend to start isolating, and it’s important to compare your child’s behavior with their previous behavior. So previously, your child came home from school and spent an hour, an hour and a half, playing video games, but then came out of his or her room and got a snack and was, you know, energetic, interacting with you and engaging with you. Okay, then that doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s a negative sign, but it’s a change in that it’s where they are in their room, maybe staring at the wall, or they’re in there longer when they come out, they get something to eat, but they’re not engaging with you. So the sense of isolation or the observation of their behavior as being more about isolation and avoidance and to really, really be on the lookout for that, and don’t again. Don’t probe them and say, what’s going on? How come in your room? So long. Okay, that doesn’t really help anything. But by saying, Hey, listen, I’m gonna sit down and watch the show on Netflix, you told me about, if you want to come out, watch it with me, I’d love to have you. Or saying, you know, I’m gonna make myself a snack. Would you like some? Do something that creates an environment where it’s inviting to engage without poking around at their feelings and emotions, because they may not be accessible to them, or they may not make them accessible to you at that moment. So isolation is another one. It is isolating, and I’m not isolating, but withdrawing from friends, so things that they might have wanted to do previously, and these are also signs of depression. But I think it’s important that we recognize that there might be some of that short term that maybe isn’t something to worry about, but it’s the persistence of those behaviors. So a friend that they may have, you know, gone outside, down the street and shot that from the basketball courts and kind of stopped doing that. Haven’t done it maybe for three weeks in a row somebody who looks at their grades, I think all parents should be looking in the parent portal of their children’s school to see whether they’re turning in assignments or there seems to be a trend that’s going down a bit with their academics. And again, don’t probe. Offer opportunity. Say, I’m going to run to the library or this coffee shop or work on something for work. You want to go there with me, and you can do some of your homework, make some things inviting, try to engage without it feeling punitive to your child. The only other thing is, is that really pay attention to whether your children are talking in a language that’s negative and kind of fatalistic, versus able to look at the positive and opportunities or asking the kind of questions that might be expected. For example, I worked with a family for a long time that the mom, when the divorce occurred, she and the children moved in with her parents, and she had to share a room with the daughter, and then the son slept on the couch, and it was meant to be short term, but because of a series of situations, they were there probably about two years, and that’s not ideal. And so one of the things that I think was a subtle turn is her son started to make comments like, it’s never gonna get better. This is just, you know, this is supposed to be short term. You lied to me. They were struggling with being able to look at, okay, we gotta figure out how to deal with this. And kids don’t understand financial resources and limitations, or some of those things, and some of that’s developmentally appropriate, even in intact families. But looking for those things, looking for the fatalistic thinking, the things that they’re saying and an inability to have hope, look for those things and also talk to your friends who have children that are same age as yours, that your kids hang out with, or they’re in the same classes. And you might want to say, you know, I know that you care about us and you respect us and my kids. And if there’s anything I need to know that you find out, just want you to know I’m open to hearing it, giving your friends permission to tell you things they may notice, because they may see some things before you do.
Krista Nash 38:40
That’s really good advice. You can tell you’re like, I am. I have four adult children. You have three. You can tell that we are parents just with our plain talking solutions based approach at some of this. I mean, I feel like a lot of what I do in my best interest work draws on that more than be a lawyer, right? It’s like, let’s talk about what these kids need. Let’s talk about, you know social media pressures, or you know what they can do for curfew, or how they’re there’s a lot of dynamics that come into play in divorce families that you know common sense approach, having been experienced as a parent, really brings a lot of help, help to and I think your friends who you can trust, have a good relationship with, are really great resources to say, Hey, let me know. You know, you know, I’m open if you’re seeing anything that’s really good advice from a mother and psychologist, right?
Susan Fletcher 39:26
I appreciate that. Can I just add you and I both know that we are the provider of hope for the clients that we serve and the families that we serve, and so we have to role model that. We have to role model some positivity and hope when they’re struggling to find that, especially as it relates to the well being of their children. And let’s also acknowledge some parents can be hyper vigilant, and I see things that aren’t there with their kids, because I and I’ll just offer the hypotheses that might make them feel better because they’re miserable, if their kids are miserable or they’re mad at their soon to be ex spouse, you know, might feel validating if the. Children are mad, and those are areas that, you know, where we see that in litigation, and we try to do everything we can to redirect that, because that doesn’t benefit children. So I think it’s important just to, you know, have your social group give them permission to alert you to some things about yourself, as well as your kids.
Krista Nash 40:17
I love that. It’s like getting into the echo chamber a little bit, you know, inviting feedback. So that’s a great pivot, actually. So let’s talk now about the professionals. Okay, and talking to the professionals about which hopefully I always say that this part of the podcast episodes should still be interesting to parents, though, because this will help you evaluate the kind of professionals you should hire, and if you’re needing an attorney or a mental health professional, the kind of things you want to think about in terms of how those people can be doing services, or maybe just services, or be doing things better or worse than they are. So let’s talk about that. So what common missteps? I mean, you talked about role modeling, right? And being the role model for I’ve got some attorneys who call people like you and like me, first responders, or especially attorneys representing parents as first responders. What do you see with these kinds of missteps? Are you seeing damn law professionals? Maybe that mental health professionals? Maybe it’s lawyers that don’t serve children very well, as we talk about divorce. Maybe particularly when divorce is first picking up or a conflict